What is spiritual and what is divine? My Q&R for the day.

yes, there is a lot of confusion here… in the thread about the profane by aley, i tried to show how here in Quebec what was considered most “sacred” became the worst “profanities” - but that isn't really important, not as much as understanding that when we see with the eyes of the spirit, divinity shines through so much… there are things that are very hurtful and very ugly and painful, so it's not so easy to see the divine in them but of course there is spirit there too, we just have to dig deeper and listen more carefully with the heart to learn what is there to know from this… 

Aren't we all divine? And I mean this sincerely. Aren't we all the creation of something bigger than ourselves? We embody the divine, don't we? we do emanate from one source, I agree.

Divinity is inherent in all of us, spirituality is not, nor is religiosity. I think people choose to be spiritual, or not. And yet some of the loudest spiritual people can be the biggest hypocrites.

I have a dear friend who was elevated by his spiritual community as “one who knows” and it was not his intention to be elevated in this way. Then he “disappointed” them. And they turned on him. Wait a minute now! It reminded me of when as children we put our parents on a pedastal and they fall from it when we realize they are human after all. They never should have been put there in the first place!

We are, each and every one of us equals on this planet. No better and no worse. Given any set of circumstances, we may make the same mistakes, or the same great gestures. There are no heroes. Just humans living with purpose and love.

thanks John….you juicy blogger!

:)

Aley

that;s interesting, Aley, I think we are all spiritual beings - we all are filled with spirit. but how much of ourselves we invest in spirituality is different. we may be much less spiritual than we think, as you point out… and we may be much more spiritual as well - spirituality isn't a simple thing, not like religiosity certainly, not something you can measure by what beliefs you sign up for or how many religious events you attend etc.

I love your comment Aley: “Divinity is inherent in all of us, spirituality is not, nor is religiosity.”  I sometimes think that religiosity gets in the way of spirituality.  In my mind Religion can be a roadblock to spirituality because the rules one must follow to conform to their religion can prevent the normal spiritual evolution.  Yes divinity is in all of us. 

We often repeat patterns because we are unable to step outside our comfort zone and explore other options.  If we are an enabler, we may have the best intentions to help someone when in reality we are furthering their stagnation and of course our own.  Breaking a cycle of behavior is one of the more difficult things we as humans do. 

Often times the rules and rituals we do in religion aren't about making us more spiritual beings, but rather our security blanket we need because being naked spiritually is so frightening to some.  Is not the divine present in all things?  Why must we follow man made rules of religion in order to pass through the gate to paradise?

I'll be interested to see where this one goes.  The divine and the profane are not two sides of a coin in opposition to each other but that is just my humble opinion. 

Yeh, I think everyone will have their take on it, their 'experience' of their divinity. I have no doubt that we all are divine, but we each have the choice, with consciousness to access that thing that's really REALLY pure.

When I think of divine, by the way, I think harmony, silence, power but in dynamic control. Turbulence is possible, is recognised within, but is not all-consuming. And I look at the composition of Nature as my reference point.

Just my immediate feelings from this.

Thanks and blessings. sherri

I think the divine & spiritual are the same (in my limited comprehension of reality). I think all humans have the spark of the divine and a manifestation of that is spirituality (I mean that beyond religion, although that could be a part of the expression). However, as Sherri pointed out, the extent to which we choose to manifest our divinity depends on our ability to connect with what “is” and truly see.

   ~ the scribe

Yes, KiNG… Everyrhing is Divine… all appears and disappears in this Divine and Spiritual Awareness… Everything is welcome… from the deepest hurt , shame, guilt or fear, to the joyous, bliss, ecstacy… All is welcome..

In my way of thinking there are NO mistakes.  At least not to me.  Everything that happens in the cosmic drama is perfection…including the confrontations, the profanity and the confusion.  Can it be uncomfortable?  You bet.  
I am a firm believe that everything happens for a reason and that includes everything that happens in here.  If we all learned the same way there wouldnt be any reason for Gaia or any other enlightenment vehicle.  The plain truth is we dont.  Am I wrong and others are right because I happen to become more aware of my 'crap' through blogs that push my buttons rather than are all golden and light filled?  I think not.
For me encounters to the Divine don't just come in one flavor..  Its more like Baskins Robins where you have all those wonderful different choices to sample from until you find the one that works for you.  And yes, sometimes you might get into an energetic exchange with the person who cut in line in front of you or disagrees with the ice cream topping you choose, but in the end it all comes down to the fact that it is your choice…How Divine!

Perhaps it is but a great Mystery, and in that Mystery, alone, is found Divinity.  It is interesting how it works that way, sometimes.

I liked reading the shared thoughts here this evening.

Blessings~

I did not read everyone thoughts here! Too late in the day… I will later. Great blog once again John! Thank  you for calling our attention to this thing we do… It is called judgement, it is called separation, mine is better then yours…. or bigger, opppsss that another blog…
It is All divine. It is our reaction that are not divinely inspired but humanly egoic in response. plus our reaction to or place in the balance… If I am not centered, If I have to allow my consciousness to lead me (spirit) to hear, read or respond… then it is a human/egoic reaction… 
Got it? Get It? Good !!! If not to bad it will come around again!
I am Love, Jeff

First, regarding Satya's question, and Aley's statements particularly regarding “Divinity” “Spirituality” and “Religion,” it is important to define each of these terms.  I think we all know the difference between Spirituality and Religion, but how is Divinity different from Spirituality?  Being clear about this would make for a clearer discourse here.  I presume that Satya was merely using them as synonyms, to make his point. 

Second, in an attempt to respond to Satya's initial question, what is spiritual and what is divine, assuming these are the same, or nearly the same, thing…
I realize that there are developmental perspectives on this, i.e., that people move through stages and increase in their spirituality.  There are, for lack of a better term, “absolute” perspectives on this, i.e., that everything in the universe is spiritual.  Then there may be somewhat of an opposing perspective, that only very special few are spiritual. 

Given these perspectives, and there are many more, I think I'm both an absolutist, i.e., that all that is manifest in the universe is from One Consciousness, and a  developmentalist, i.e., that each conscious being, for now each person, does or does not move through various stages of awareness/experience of that One Consciousness.  What seems to be the issue here, is people judging others about what is or is not That.  This is an interesting game: On the one hand, accepting everything, every action, as spiritual, may represent a lazy relativism in which the elevated nature of spirit is neglected.  On the other hand, accepting few things, few actions, as spiritual, may represent an egoic judgmentalism, pitting one valid view against another.  Each person does have to decide what is spiritual, or spiritually more developed, and be careful not to lose sight of other valid perspectives. 

All in One, i.e, “All consciousness is One Consciousness.”

Doug

Following from I just wrote:

And this is a developmental perspective:  What is spiritual or divine is the seeking of the individual for the Ultimate Spirit/God.  There is a divine or spiritual “instinct” that moves many of us toward God/Unity.  This manifests in many ways.  Hence the axiom: All paths are equal. What I have just realized is this implies an activity, an active seeking, i.e, the paths are there, but they must be walked.  So again, what is spiritual, is movement along one's path. 

All in One,

Doug

Perhaps a better and more relevant question would be..
Can you define what a Internet troll is?

from your comment john

Yeah, I'm grateful to the people that push my buttons.  I bless them - because they're probably pushing the buttons that I've placed before them to be pushed.

Perhaps you like to be duped but I find it very unenlightened.

Are we so caught up in the division, the tension, the differences that we don't see a greater picture of wholeness in the appearance of what is being played out?

Well I've been looking at that picture with a new perspective and i've come to the conclusion that we, me especially was duped recently on a very cosmic subject.

I maybe way off base on this but my gut tells me different..and that sucker is usually right on. Check these links out and tell me what your perspective is.

Hear and this one's neat and there are many more like this one

I hope this makes good sense. The definition of Sacred is really broad. Now whether or not something is Sacred to YOU, is up to you.

Lets kick-up a little sand and have a real long relaxing piss in someone Wheaties.

or not…I really have no desire to enter into the lions cage alone.

unenlightened and unconscious,

~lars

some druids once called me a witch
witches said i was not
neither could tell me how to be
because they had no definition they could agree upon
not even using their 'own' created dogma and religious rules and practices
i can speak all day using the words divine, religious, and spiritual
if you wish me truly instead of being myself
to come into agreement or a decision about 'you'
you must please first clearly define each and every thought and motivation and intent upon it on any given day in any given discussion
or i shall surely fail
and will only be LadyMood(loved that pedestal reference)

I have to confess that I have not read the blog or the replies, but I know the answer to this question………………………………..Everything, and everyONE!!!

Nara, I understand/experience how everything is spiritual, but do you experience somethings/times as more spiritual, or more developed in terms of spirit?  Is dog-doo as spiritual as your love for another person?  Is greed as spiritual as giving?  Is hate as spiritual as love?  Is the implicit belief that ones original culture of origin is the only way to understand the world as spiritual as the belief that all cultures have their own way of understanding the world and these can be subsumed under a unitive idea of human experience?  Is a coorporations denial of their obvious knowledge of polluting of the environment as spiritual as organic gardening?  Is a cigarette company's denial of the harmful effects of tobacco as spiritual as a healer laying hands on someone with lung cancer?  

All in One,

Doug

Yes, all is part of Consciousness.  I was just trying to place things, events, experiences, in a relative place of amount or degree of spiritual, or along a continuum of spiritual development.  Is a Marlboro cigarette compulsively and relatively unconsciously smoked by an addicted dude as spiritual as tobacco smoked during a native ceremony.  What is the difference?  By asking the question, you seperated that which is Spiritual and Divine, from that which is not, and I think it's an excellent and very very important question not just for everyone, but particularly for this community, all of whom seem to be on a spiritual path of one kind or another.  Again, I would say that spiritual is moving forward along one's path, toward increasing/greater consciousness.  That's my answer, whether you want it or not, you hairy biscuit! 

All in One,

Doug

Namaste!
The divinity in me vows to the divinity in you!
: )

Awakened/Doug

In the entire scheme of the universe nothing is more spiritual than anything else. That is because we, and everything else in the universe, are equally God. But inside of our individuations of the almighty ONE (God), of which WE are ALL a part, WE have the gift of free will, which affords us the ONEderful ability to pick and choose those people, places and things that we prefer to look upon some people, places and things more favorably than others.

But again I say, in the entire scheme of the universe WE ARE ALL ONE!!!

So therefore, when we can all look upon everything and everyONE, no matter what behaviors they display, and realize that they are just as spiritual as the rest of us (here at Gaia) and that they too are were they need to be on there spiritual path, then and only then, will we see/experience ourselves as equal.

It is the judgements of trying to determine for others what good and bad is that WE need to drop. Love people for who they are and what they choose to partake in, and be the example through your thoughts, words and actions (of what you think is good or right) that they might see a different fork in the road that they might not have seen before, along their journey.

This, of course, is just the way that I prefer to/see things, who's to say that I am right or wrong, right?!?  :-)

Love and light on your journey back to yourself (God)!

~namaste~

Please take many of the comments that I have made on this thread as a way to understand some of the problems on Jon's Sacred Male Sexuality thread and Satya's Juicy thread. 


Well put Nara, and your detailed description says so much more than your previous response.  If you carefully read my earlier posts on this thread, you will see that we agree on much.  This may in part be because we were awakened in much the same manner.  While I experience that we are all equal as you say, I do not believe that we are all on the same spiritual level, that all of each and everyone of our consciousness is equally spiritually developed, etc…  We all may come from the same spirit and have the same potential to reach the Ultimate, but we have not all progressed as far along the path.  There are many examples through history, including you yourself, and me myself, with our awakenings.  What was the difference before and after?  We became more Conscious of who we really are.  If you knew me well, you would know that I Love all people equally (of course, in a more intimate way with those with whom I am closest.)  I also meet people who understand and are more conscious of God/Spirit/The Ultimate than others.

Here is a quote from Sri Aurobindo addressing some of these issues.  If you are not going to read it carefully, and repeatedly (at least twice, slowly) don't read it at all, unless you are a supergenious: 

“…the limitations we impose on Brahman [the Absolute; the Spirit, the Supreme Being; the Reality; The one Reality which is not only spiritual, material and conscious substance of all the ideas and forces and forms of the universe, but their origin, support and possessor, the cosmic and supracosmic Spirit] arise from narrowness of experience in the individual mind which concentrates itself on one aspect of the Unknowable and proceeds forthwith to deny or disparage all the rest.  {{This is what seems to be protested to so much here at Gaia}}  We affirm the One and Identical by passionately discriminating and asserting the egoism of our own opinions and partial experiences against the opinions and partial experiences of others.  It is wiser to wait, to learn, to grow, and, since we are obliged for the sake of our self-perfection to speak of these things which no human speech can express, to search for the widest, the most flexible, the most catholic [universal in extent] affirmation possible and found on it the largest and most comprehensive harmony.” 
and a couple of pages later, “The Unknowable is Something to us supreme, wonderful and ineffable which continually formulates Itself to our consciousness and continually escapes from the formulation It has made….guiding us from reality to ever profounder and vaster reality until we find the profoundest and vastest of which we are capable…” 

Aurobindo also knows the limits of langauge, particularly in explicating the Ultimate.  Many of us know it as well.  Hence, as soon as you use a word, you are dividing.  That which is spiritual, by the very nature of language, becomes separate from that which is not spiritual.  In any case, for current purposes, it is essential to define what meaning of spiritual one is using, for much confusion is based on poorly defined terms.  It's easy to say everything is spiritual, but this is not very instructive or illuminating.  It's much harder to begin to differentiate some details of what spirituality is, how it develops, and how we understand it, which is what I interpreted this thread to be about.

From my first post on this thread: “Given these perspectives [relativism, absolutist, developmental], and there are many more, I think I'm both an absolutist, i.e., that all that is manifest in the universe is from One Consciousness, and a developmentalist, i.e., that each conscious being, for now each person, does or does not move through various stages of awareness/experience of that One Consciousness.  What seems to be the issue here, is people judging others about what is or is not That.”

Love to you all, Namaste, and,

All in One,

Doug

Excellent reply my brother Doug.

But don't you see my friend (I repeat) how those judgements about what is spiritual and what is just your 'free will' perception of the world?

As you said, “it is essential to define what meaning of spiritual one is using, for much confusion is based on poorly defined terms.  It's easy to say everything is spiritual, but this is not very instructive or illuminating.” Spirituality as the wise Sri Aurobindo once said, “…the limitations we impose on Brahman [the Absolute; the Spirit, the Supreme Being; the Reality; The one Reality which is not only spiritual, material and conscious substance of all the ideas and forces and forms of the universe, but their origin, support and possessor, the cosmic and supracosmic Spirit] arise(s) from narrowness of experience in the individual mind which concentrates itself on one aspect of the Unknowable and proceeds forthwith to deny or disparage all the rest…”

Our Individuated perceptions of Brahman (insert bolded area above as text here). You see, no thought, word or action will define the undefinable. And although (like I just said) this does not define God, the 'Unknowable,' or Brahman, these are the closet words that I can find to describe what I am trying to portray here.

”Pure love is who you are! When you express pure love, you give yourself the direct experience of who you are. It is the greatest gift! It looks as if your giving a gift to others, and you are giving it to yourself, that is because there is no one else in the room, it only looks as if there is.” –Neale Donald Walsch

You see, this is why I said, in my last post, that until we see everyONE as equally on their path as ourselves than WE are selves won't truly know are selves as ONE! It will remain a concept until it is experienced.

By the way, it is my knowing/preference to beleive that in Jesus' view we were all equal to him. He truly did not see any difference, from his soul to yours, in any way. The only thing that was different was that he chose to use is almighty creative power to do these that we call miracles. Will we continue, to this day, to use our almighty power for selfish worldly desires and war.

I bring back the point I made earlier about preference and choice. It was Jesus' choice/preference to use his almighty power to do what he did. And we can do the same things right this instance if we only choose to. To do this you don't have to become more spiritual, you just have to DO IT. I truly can't say it any easier than that.

~namaste~
*deep bow*

Brian

p.s the only difference between my first post and the second is the fact that I used more words to define what I was trying to convey, which only served to get me further from the truth of which I was seeking to convey. And now with this third reply and more examples and definitions we get further and further away from the ultimate truth. Do you see how definitions and words get us further and further away from experiencing God (which can't be defined or described)?

Hear, hear. NIce to see you embracing our power :)

Peace and love as we all continue evolving in our choices.

sherri

But Nara, don't you see, my friend (I repeat) how those judgements about what is spiritual and what is just your 'free will' perception of the world?  You too, have your ideas about what is spiritual.  The only difference, is I am looking at development, it would seem that you believe that all states are in all ways equal.  O.k, if that's what you believe. 

So, answer me this, is dog-doo as spiritual an expression of consciousness as love?  Please respond specficially to this, and explain. 
If that's too off point, also answer this:  Were you as conscious, or as spiritually manifest, prior to your awakening?  Please respond specifically to this, and explain. 

Nara, I generally agree with what you said.  However, if it were as easy as the Nike approach of “Just do it,” me and you would be walking on water now.  We would all Be manifesting the loving power of Christ in all ways that Christ did.  Are you?  You can answer this also.  I know we both try, and we are progressing in our development in this regard. 

It may be that the effort of personal transformation/evolution, is what it is all about, bringing the material/body/mind into greater consciousness.  I do agree that we have to change our limiting beliefs, and believing that we are the Ultimate is part of this.  As for your comment regarding the limitations of words, it is often difficult to work through them, but words are much of what we have to inform one another about the Path, particuarly on-line.  I don't want to set up an opposition, where I have to defend words, they are limiting, but all we want to communicate.  There is a reason God is often referred to as The Ineffable.

Stay well my brother,

All in One,

Doug

Nara, I also believe that if we were face-to-face, spirit-to-spirit, we would be experiencing a unity and identity, and learn more about what It is all about.  I also believe that our energies would combine and magnify one another.  This has been a cumbersome process, that involves misunderstandings due to the nature of words, but also to the linear nature of blogging, e.g., we can't say, “ya kinda, but this is really what I mean,” then the blog goes off in a tangent.  It is a major reason why I stopped blogging several months ago, only recently to return on Jon's blog, and then this.  Satya and I talked about the problems on Jon's blog, and coming here was, for me, not Satya, an attempt to resolve differences.  Instead, I feel that with you, it has highlighted really relatively meaningless differences, while you and I are very very much alike, even to the specific ways that we have awakened.  This is spoken from the heart.

With Love,

Doug

Hey Doug,

I was going to send you a friends request but you don't seem to allow that function on your page :-(

you replied, ”But Nara, don't you see, my friend (I repeat) how those judgements about what is spiritual and what is just your 'free will' perception of the world?” As I stated earlier, we are in complete agreement here.

 ”You too, have your ideas about what is spiritual.  The only difference, is I am looking at development, it would seem that you believe that all states are in all ways equal.  O.k, if that's what you believe.”   This one statement and this one word is indeed the difference between the way that we look a spirituality. (which of course is perfect for our own individual paths). You see, the way that I know things to be is that the more “spiritually” aware (and I use this term very loosely, for reasons already stated) you become the more you realize that you always were everything (God). And since you are always (and in all ways) everything, how can you develop upon the perfection that you already are. (I know neither of us have used this term, and I am not trying to start up a discussion over this word, but) enlightenment is not a to be acheived or attained. Enlightenment is simply a recognition of what you always were.

”So, answer me this, is dog-doo as spiritual an expression of consciousness as love?” To simply answer this question, yes! but since you wanted a little explanation, I will give a short anwser, because I could write a 3 page paper on why this is so. Dog-doo is a loving expression of the body of the dog who chooses to keep his body healthy by releasing the waste that is contained within his bowels, which would cause him much internal pains and disease if not handled properly. To go a little further with that, unbenonst to the dog, his feces works to furtilize the grass and therefore feeds the flowers and who knows what else…and the circle of life continues.

”Were you as conscious, or as spiritually manifest, prior to your awakening?” Those are to different and separate ideas and concepts so I will have to answer them separately.

Consciousness is the awareness of the spiritual BEing that you always were. (And just to go back to what I said earlier. Awareness does not develop your spiritually. It only makes you aware of it. This simply might be the difference between the two of us. You might be looking at spiritually, like I look at consciousness/awareness)

My spiritual manifestations, on the other hand,  have never changed, but it might be  percieved as so by an onlooker who would judge the situation from the stand point of before and after (which of course is always what judgement is about. And like I already stated before, there is nothing wrong with any of it. Including the way that you and me see and experience the world).

”Nara, I generally agree with what you said.  However, if it were as easy as the Nike approach of “Just do it,” me and you would be walking on water now.  We would all Be manifesting the loving power of Christ in all ways that Christ did.” It truly is as easy as just do it. Is there any other way to prove to someone that you can do something that you say you can. Please don't answer this, for that would just take us off on another tangent, which neither of us wants.

The only way that I can answer this is to say that to walk on water is just one sign that you have realized the almighty power that is contained within you, but it is more a parlor trick of that power. The true power lies in loving that which many would call unlovable, such as dog-doo, a molester or Hitler. In these things I am becoming more consciously aware of every moment, and in that my consciousness/awareness/love of myself grows.

“it has highlighted really relatively meaningless differences” That's it! now you've got it my brother. That is exactly what I have been saying this whole time. Life has NO meaning except the meaning that you give it!!! (which come through your experiences, judgements and preferences).

good conversation my brother. I do hope that you send me a friends invite so that we can stay in touch.

~namaste~
*deep bow*

Brian

I can't believe I missed this one!  I scrolled through the replies/comments.  My answer to John's question is very close to Jeff's answer.  Separation and judgement.  When one person claims something to be more divine/spiritual than something else, or even better when they claim to be more than someone else.  Ego, Separation, and judgement. 

I tried to read through all of the back and forth between Brian and Doug. In this moment I just can't do it.  I perceive that there is some sort of an effort to sway one to the other's way of seeing.  I could be majorly  wrong as it is a bit late and the end of a long day.  Perhaps I will have it in me to come back and read the interaction word for word and really feel what is being said.  But, for me, starting an answer to a question like this  with the need to define terms is just one more example of why the question needs to be asked.  It's like saying there is only one absolute definition for everyone at every given moment.  Everyone is at their own stage of growth and development of their own path and definitions may be fluid.

It's all spiritual.  If we all come from one source and each express divinity then are our creations not divine and spiritual too?  And let me throw this one out there…why the assumption that all things spiritual/divine are good? Why the assumption that bad things are not spiritual? Were they not created by a human being that is an aspect of source and expressing divinity?  Isn't the concept of “good/bad” just an illusion?  Just another judgement?

I seem to have gotten carried away with myself on this one.  Like I said, I shall come back tomorrow and see what my feelings are after a night of sleep!

Brian,

Not sure why the invite didn't work, but I will be going from here to befriend you here at Gaia.  I thank you for your insights brother:  Just as I have been reading Sri Aurobindo's work very carefully, I will be rereading our posts, to see what more I can learn from your, and my own, words/views of spirit, i.e., what ways I can move further into One by shifting my beliefs. 

This has been very fruitful and I commend us for hanging in there with one another.  We both care deeply about Spirit and using the words here was like carving a diamond with mittens on. 

On a general note, some of what we have done is something like integrate multiplicity and unity; the multiplicity of different views and from a human/egoic/developmental perspective, different states/stages of awareness/consciousness into One.   Accepting all paths as One.  For each person, as a body/mind, is a point of manifestation of One, and so each person's point of view is an expression of One. 

Just to offer this again in different words: “the meaning of life” may be to evolve/transform into, or simply accept in every way that we are One. 

Your response regarding dog-doo was inspired and even somewhat humorous, and I don't mean that in any pejorative sense - I guess that's another way that dog doo is spiritual, we can sometimes laugh at it's manifestation.

AlcheMystic,
Your questions raise this question for me, while I understand that hate and love are manifestations of the One, isn't love, in some Ultimate sense superior to hate, yes judgment with clarity.  Is Love a truer manifestation of who we really are than is hate?  It may be because of this:  Love is a body/mind/spirit expression of our Oneness, and not our separation/multiplicity that comes from our body/mind/ego. 

All in One,

Doug 

What is spiritual, sacred and Divine?  What a schematic!  It's all about scraping away the Numbers God that we are forced to worship to survive, and the Rational God we are trained to conform to, and finding life beyond object of society's affections, to discover the life of our own…

You know I'm just a poor old washed up flower child who moved through this stuff years ago. I still kick it around and enjoy the knowing from the unknowing. The thing about it, to me anyway. Is it loses its magic when you try to describe it. Just saying it 'cause you to move away from it….

I find it everywhere i look..
so do alot of other people…

Move here for a about 1:15 minutes and tell me what you feel.

~lars