Circumcision - asking the hard questions (busting taboo bullshit)

Discerning if my circumcised penis is relevant.
I'm sure the guyettes will have some interesting comments on this subject.
Now i'm going to be grokking circumcision until when?
…off to read Stacy's blog and return later with introspection.

I read recently that the foreskin has the most nerve-endings so that means circumcised men are missing out but they don't know what they are missing.I don't know much about it. my husband is jewish and marty and harry were circumcised on my kitchen table by a rabbi and then everyone danced around. lala havlalalachacalaa. or whatever they are singing.Something to do with cleanliness but maybe not. I will have to look it up.I have only had the opportunity to experience one man with an uncircumcised penis. It was pretty cute actually.

Never thought much about it!  I am circumcised and for years I did not know that I was different or that it was something done to me… I was raised Roman Catholic. There are some that prefer circumcised men over uncircumcised for varying reason. It does have something to do with Abramham and the covenant with God. Here is what my Jewish friend has to say.It is an important physical statement about man's covenant with God
A covenant of the flesh is akin to a covenant of the heart - the foreskin is like an unneeded part of fruit. Rather like the stem of an apple, it is important at one stage but ultimately it is not part of that fruit
It recognises that God has ownership of the body and it is God who gave the command to circumcise
It is a profound statement of dedication towards one's ancestors
It is an historic act that binds circumcised males to their ancestors and peers
It is a cultural and physical sign that is symbolic
It gives a sense of belonging
7:48 AMThis is the Jewish perspective7:49 AMalso it is a commandment

The Torah (Genesis 16:14) also says: “Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreksin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

7:50 AMThis is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreksins and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring.
7:50 AM
He IM ed me as I was writing so I ask, yes over coffee. 

yes and if i could retain certain things i could point out the part in the bible where that practice was sortof done away with…it states things about he that is uncircumcised should remain that way
he that is should do or not do certain things
how is that for helpful to the conversation…jeff suggested more tea i think he's right lol
but i know it's in there
just like the bit about the sheet with all of the foods on it

my really long, what i thought was a well-thought-out reply, just up and disappearded!
damnation

here's the links, anyway:
http://mamaboogie.gaia.com/blog/2008/8/mkultra_-_mind_control
and www.nocirc.org

i believe it should be a man's decision to make, whether he chooses to enter into covenant with God just because some crazy old man liked to cut on himself way way back a long time ago, and then told everybody else they had to do it too.  (the same crazy old man responsible for that war in the middle east still going on today!!)  that is not a decision i would have been comfortable making for my babies, had they been boys.

my personal experience is that uncut penis feels better and looks more attractive (personal, subjective opinion here.  i am not stating this as fact.  just my opinion.).  the skin slides around on the shaft.  they are usually cleaner than circ'd men, simply because they pay more attention to keeping it clean.

Yes Elisa, St Paul offered the non-jewish people a way out. These where grown men that where converting from whatever, yet the jewish followers of Jesus clung to their ritual and tradition…. as the jewish people still do… Yet Paul in his wisdom to gain more followers stepped aside from that as well as diet. When it became a practice for medical or health reasons mostly in the US I do not know. I have not had much experience with European Men but I believe most of them are uncircumcised! Jeff

“Medicalized circumcision began during the 1800s to prevent masturbation, which was believed to cause disease.”  nocirc.org

classic example of an outmoded tradition that is superstitiously caried forward as a custom even though there is hardly ever a  medical reason for it in this day and age and it is no doubt an unnecessary and extremely disturbing trauma for baby boys… imagine your first experience of the most sensitive, gender-identifiying and pleasure producing part of your body is having some dude slice a piece of it off in the name of god and/or social convention!

how bizarre that the norm in the 21 st century western world is for men to have surgically modified penises - and penises that have not been surgically modified at birth are considered unusual!

seriously…

i am circumcised as were 99% of the boys i grew up with - but would lobby my baby mama pretty hard for my son to remain whole down below, basically just on principle - why put an infant through unnecessary surgery and body modification?

of course there is also interesting historical stuff around the circumcising of adult men in the unspoken shadow side of the hanukkah story - the maccabees reformed lapsed jews who had crossed over to the ancient greek way of life in a pretty brutal way…

I'm cut too.  I had a girlfriend who also said that an uncircumcised cock had it's advantages, including that whole shaft sliding thing - thank God for lube - but I doubt that circumcision was God's “idea.”  Why would God put the skin there in the first place?  There is debate about one way being more sensitive than the other, and the last thing I heard is that there was no difference.  In terms of one being cleaner than the other, well that's an individual hygiene thing. 

I do agree that circumcision done to baby boys is a serious trauma, so, be extra loving to my cock, please, but you don't have to be gentle!.

Guys and gals, just enjoy your cocks. 

All in One,

Doug

I have two sons.
One of  whom is circumcised. He was 7 days old  when it was performed.A local  anaesthetic was injected into  the  area,he was given some dextrose,a metal   clamp  was placed on his glans,the skin lifted and then  sliced off.
He  screamed  and cried  for about five minutes after…I have never  heard him  scream or cry like that since. I still  feel  something to this day how I caved into my husband's traditions,and submitted  a child  to this.The rest of the day was filled with people celebrating,and a child traumatized,seeking my breast,and crying any moment he wasn't nuzzled in closely.
I sold my son's foreskin to the tradition's of someone else.
BTW as a  nurse I  can tell you that regardless of how the procedure is performed it is very   painful and traumatic…..and RARELY necessary.

My ex, 1st generation Irish Catholic, was uncircumcised, so when we had two sons, they remained uncircumcised. My elder boy was circumcised for medical reasons when he was an adult. I don't know about the details, because he was an adult and didn't have to tell me anything.

I experience delight in both kinds of penises, artistically and erotically. It is the Energy expressed in the cock rather than the physical attributes that make a difference–to me as a woman that is.

According to Joseph Kramer's Cock Reflexology, the area the foreskin is/was attached corresponds to the heart. So treat yourself tenderly and deliciously in that area, and have your lover do the same.

Blessings upon all cocks, and those who love them!

DC

PS. Re religious or cultural circumcision, many indigenous cultures have a bloody initiation that involves circumcision, and of boys/men who are older, from 6 or 7 to adult, depending on the culture. It is hard to create a meaning from the intellectual mind about why this is done. There is something elemental about blood sacrifice for humans, and it lives on in both industrial and pre industrial societies.

Enough blood has been paid. We don't need men to spill any of their blood for life any more. Women do it naturally for every one.

I spent four years restoring my foreskin and my wife and I are thrilled with how much better sex is with the natural amount of slack skin.  My glans and my mucosal skin are more supple and sensitive, but really it's the way the skin feels skinking around that's so awesome.  Now, if I could just re-grow the 20,000 pleasure-receptive nerve endings. 

-Ron

“the norm in the 21 st century western world is for men to have surgically modified penises” My God; it is the norm? This is more serious than I thought!

It's not the norm in my country! [Developing world… hmmm] I can't even see the point! And which disease are we at risk with again in this day and age that couldn't be addressed with proper hygiene techniques? So that's where the funds for saving kids' lives goes… to tormenting the male of the species. No wonder they're so angry. [I still don't want to believe it is the norm; that's ridiculous]

And then I also wonder about this covenant thing which apparently justifies it. That is as bad as 'baptising' a child at a few months old and saying the child is now walking a Christian path. How absurd!

Is any of this making sense to you? That's just painful to imagine. Poor babies!

20,000 pleasure sensitive little nerve endings gone from my penis!!!
This is so not fair, Trauma piled upon trauma…..“The Horror…
;-(

I took the liberty of pasting this film site reference from  Ron's profile - thanks Ron.  It is a film made about circumcision and there are a few clips, totally over an hour on the film and opinions of some intelligent folks regarding circumcision:
http://CutTheFilm.com

All in One,

Doug

Very interesting and wonderful blog and comments.
I enjoyed Boogie's blog about it and had a wonderful discussion and I thank her for the link!

I could just HUGGGG Carla…yes, we bleed naturally for everyone! No more bloodshed, please! (BTW, your son probably got circumcised as an adult for the same reason my nephew did…an infection.)

IMHO….Seeing as how girls in some cultures also get circumcised, I think it all stems from the anal-retentive type who doesn't want people to have any pleasure, believing that sex is 'dirty' and a 'sin'…or whatever. Though the girls get their whole clitoris hacked off, bleahhh…puuuuuuke.

Our Creator put those nerve endings and pleasure receptors there for a reason. We don't ever have the right to mess with God's Creations…which are altogether Perfect. Sex is Divine and so is Pleasuring Oneself…dammit :-D

BTW, my youngest son's father (of Jewish persuasion) really pushed to have him circumcised, but the hospital refused, saying that it was not medically necessary.
I agree. (and freakin anything could be a 'spiritual' or 'religious' “necessity”…)

webster's 2 definition; of circumcision: or rather uncircumcised: Not circumcised. 2 Heathen. 
Heathen! Imagine that… all those people/men who are not cut are Heathens… what a world we live in… all this talk of cock is makin me Horney… plus all the ones I saw at the Naked Beach… oppss another story…
Love, Me

Heathrens!  Heathrens!  We're all Heaving Heathrens!

All in one,

Doug

Lord a mercy Doug, I just have to come back to spend more time with you sanctified heathrens at the Porch!

Satya, you flung a craving on me with your questions. I haven't spent quality time with an uncut cock since my divorce, and it definitely comes into the category of “If I had known then what I know now!”

Satya, would you take it amiss if quietly hinted that I am working on an art piece that creates a powerful opportunity for men to contribute. If you'd like to know more, private message me.

You don't have to contribute body parts, or nerve endings, just time and presence, complete, open presence and understanding of the project.

That's all for now. 

Thank you Satya for opening the doors for men and women to break silence, as vital as breaking bread together.

Carla, I just wanted to comment, out of all the men here you quote Joseph Kramer! Imagine.. the Cock Prince himself quoted by a women. Joseph Kramer and his Body Electric school and Dear Love Of Comrade, Sacred Intimate workshops for men which I have been part of some, and have even had the honor to meet and be in Joseph's presence. Great man, great gift to men and their sexuality… Thank you Carla,
And hey John this is very sexist of you. only asking the women, these questions! What about us men that have had the experience of both… we bette check your gay card? For women questions might be:If you have experience both cut and uncut men, what are some of the differences during sex (given another range of experience within the sex act as well)?  What are your concerns, if any, about having sex with an uncut man?  Do you have a preference?

Have you thought about what it would be like to be uncut?  Yes, but a bit hard to really grasp the experience; although my skin does slide over my shaft to an extent.  But no tip with all those nerves, although my tip has plenty of nerves?  

Having this information, would you want to make your own decision about being circumcised?  Yes, and I would not be cut.

Would you want your sons to be uncut even though you have been cut?  Yes, but too late.

Under what circumstances would you want your child cut?  Any of the valid medical reasons that are described in the aforementioned link.  A couple of problems appear to run in about 4% of uncut men, suggesting that 8% have some sort of significant enough problem.  Still, I would not want to be cut, unless one of those problems presented. 


All in One,

Doug

So a rabbi walks into a leather workers shop and presents several thousand circumcision forskins that he has collected over the years, requesting that they be made into a suitcase.  A couple of weeks later he returns and the leather worker puts a wallet made of the circumcisions on the counter.  The rabbi becomes incensed and gripes, “I asked you to make a suitcase, I don't need a wallet,” to which the leather worker replies, “Just rub it, it turns into a suitcase.”

All in One,

Doug (born Jewish and barmitzvahed, then left the tribe)

LOL
ok doug that was unexpected
chokes on cracker

^^ 8% have some sort of significant enough problem {to warrant circumcision} ^^

No way!  In Finland and Sweden fewer than 1 in 10,000 is found to need circumcision.  In circumcising countries, medical folks just don't have experience with the normal penis to know how to treat it without amputation.  Most of the circumcisions for “medical reasons” are for phimosis.  This pathology DOES NOT EXIST in children.  It is the natural normal state of the child's penis. 

In the adult, circumcision is NEVER the right way to treat phimosis (a foreskin so snug that it doesn't easily retract during erection).  Simple stretching exercises with steroidal ointment, and perhaps with the aid of an appliance like http://Glansie.com or http://GFS.Platigo.com usually resolve it in a few months.  If the patient can't or won't stretch, the surgical solution is “Dorsal slit with transverse closure” which amputates no sensual tissue. 

Only the owner should ever retract a foreskin.  Forced retraction of children is associated with short adult foreskin as well as adhesions and damage to the glans. 

o.k., just basing on what I heard on the reference that you provided.  Specifically the M.D., who became a moyle.  Perhaps we should both listen to that again? 

All in one,

Doug

>> what I heard on the reference that you provided.  Specifically the M.D., who became a mohel.  <<

She's included as an example of what people think and say.  The film does not represent her view as gospel. In fact she is seen as turning a blind eye to the truth.  She says: “The baby only fusses because it doesn't like the way we are holding its legs down and stuff.” and then later she is seen doing a full circumcision and the baby is perfectly content being mucked with in any number of ways UNTIL she starts hacking at his penis. 
-Ron

Wow, how'd you get that “wise and insightful comment” phrase on this page?  Never mind, I'm just tech challenged.

Ah, this is a topic I have more than a passing knowledge of.  When we were expecting my older son, we took Bradley Natural Childbirth classes and through that learned to question the need for circumcision.  We studied up, we decided not to.  Fast forward a few years and my husband did read an article in a Science magazine indicating a higher incidence of disease in an African county in uncircumcised men, just as we were expecting boy #2.

We did a 180 and decided not only to circumcise the new baby but to go back and circumcise our then 4 yr old (now 7).  I can't say I'm totally comfortable with the way it unfolded.  It was nasty and painful for him and my heart went out to him.  His dad cared for the cleaning and medicating so it could heal, we had to give him powerful pain medication. 

My 3 guys take a bath together most every night and they all look alike now and that is okay too.  My daughter is grown and married a man born in Germany who is uncircumcised.  They did circumcise my grandson and his parents thought they were crazy to but I believe my SIL had some locker room issues from his own childhood and athletic aspirations for my grandson.

My daughter has had multiple procedures to deal with dysplasia and finally ended up getting a preventive hysterectomy after the birth of her second child.  I've also read of a scientific connection between her condition and the fact that her marriage partner was uncircumcised.  If accurate, then because I love my daughter, I would not want my sons to be responsible for causing that in another girl.

I think the “jury” is still out on the issue.  I see no clear answer whether right or wrong to do it.  I have very mixed feelings regarding it but in the end, as I am not male and can not truly comprehend all involved in that decision from personal experience, I deferred to my husband in the final decisions we made each time.

I would say, if any one is expecting a boy child and has doubts as I have expressed and shared knowledge of and experience with, I would do it at birth.  My husband did attend that one, though we weren't allowed in for the surgery.  With the baby, we put him immediately to the breast to soothe him.  It seemed so much less traumatic for the infant and we did insist on anesthetic for him.  I would never wish such a reversal of a decision on any other (older than infant) young boy.

Deborah

Ron: The reference from your website that I was referencing is this:  http://cutthefilm.com/Cut_Website/Home.html. - then go to “Screenings.”  The second one down, the “Spertus” Institute” has a male MD turned mohel or “moyel.”  I am not saying that he is the final and only truth about this, and I am open to learning more, but that is where I got the 4% + 4% statistic.  He seemed credible, but again, I cannot say.

I want to add: This is a sensitive subject, pun intended and not intended, and how!  More than once since this topic was raised, I've wanted to walk away from this blog, from my own discomfort.  But accepting and moving through discomfort has been part of my development, so here I am.

Deborah, your report regarding problems in women who are with uncut guys was probably the main “objective” reason we had my son circumcised, almost 18 years ago.  Supposedly, women are significantly more at risk of uterin problems, including cancer.  I was younger than, and am not sure this is fact, and your anectdote of one case, does not, from a scientific standpoint prove anything.  Are there larger peer reviewed studies on this, other than from a third world country, where many bacterial diseases are more prevelant? 

Perhaps, like you said Deborah, the jury is still out.  Ron seems more convinced. 

As I said earlier, Guys and Gals, enjoy your cocks.

With Love,

Doug

Wise and insightful…no.. vibrates with me…yes.

I was brought up in a time when one never asked questions, never rocked the boat, and believed that doctors were gods. That went along with children should be seen and not heart.

I have one sibling, a younger, much loved sister. Mother had to work full time (in a time when a car was a dream not a reality) so she did not have extra moments to think of stuff to tell my sis and me that was not relevant.

We were brought up in a convent school. Penises did not get mentioned even though half the class was attached to one, up until the fourth grade. Then the boys and the girls had to be separated, and from that point on boys were considered a sin, and us girls knew it was 'cause of those dirty, little penises. Now where did THAT thought germinate from? I'd say a bunch of frustrated women who entered the convent as teenagers and knew zippo about the Divine Feminine.

When circumcision popped its head up, oops, in my world of words I was still a kid. I got it that only boys, those beings who had needed to be rent from the lives of girls, 'cause they were a sin, got circumcised. The next bit is scary…and funny. I think I have to thank the nuns for this, 'cause my mum never, ever told me such rubbish about anything, especially my body and sexual intimacy. I thought a boy was cut in the upper arm with a wee cooker cutter gadget and a wad of flesh was taken from him. Somewhere along the line, thankfully, I got up to speed on that little misconception. Of course I never asked 'cause it was not infomation that had meaning in my little world.

I love the look of an uncircumcised penis - the flow of the art and energy wherein the penis is a natural, beautiful vibration of the whole body, the skin shades, the texture….mmmm.
I must keep on track here…..lololol.

Hacking off parts of beings I find most barbaric. I was blessed with a daughter so I did not have to deal with this question and the ensuing battle that would have been against all the unsubstantiated “facts” supporting circumcision. My sister had two boys and I don't think she even thought about it, except that they needed to look like Daddy. It was just so, and so it goes, with her son's son……

I find it repugnant when the hygiene argument is tossed in the air. Does that not work for women also? My men friends take as much care with their bodies as I do, and especially their penises. Warm, soapy water feels really good stroked over a penis, so as the cleaning is taken care of the warm pleasure grows.

In this country I consider an uncircumcised lover as a wonderful gift.

Jag G… “vibrates with me…yes”

Female circumcision has somehow dwindled to nothingness in this discussion…

Hacking of anything God put there just ain't right and it ain't even funny. Solution to Hygiene and disease? Nonsense.

Sherri

Hi,
^^ http://cutthefilm.com/Cut_Website/Home.html. - then go to “Screenings.”  The second one down, the “Spertus” Institute” has a male MD turned mohel or “moyel.”  I am not saying that he is the final and only truth about this, and I am open to learning more, but that is where I got the 4% + 4% statistic.  He seemed credible, but again, I cannot say. ^^

OK. I'm with you now.  I've viewed all the YouTubes of Eli's screenings, I'm in 2 of them.  When he shows that movie, the local Jewish organization typically sponsors it and assembles a panel to handle Q&A pro and con.  I would say that anyone claiming “8% would need cut anyway” is con, as far as Eli the film-maker is concerned.  He presents their views pretty much without comment because he is a sincere documentarian. 

His point would be that a true Jew is commanded to follow his heart about what constitutes harm and what is just, and also to learn from all sources.  I say all Jews (even orthodox like Eli) must pick and choose from scripture and decide which to obey, because there are contradictory things which cannot simultaneously be obeyed.  Circ your child is definitely contradicted by the more recent edict “Thou shall not steal.” 

-Ron

Hi,
^^ My daughter has had multiple procedures to deal with dysplasia and finally ended up getting a preventive hysterectomy after the birth of her second child.  I've also read of a scientific connection between her condition and the fact that her marriage partner was uncircumcised.  ^^

I'm sorry to hear about that, but I'm actually stunned to hear it.  Hip Dysplasia is one of the things you see on anti-circ web sites as a crazy old 1800s reason to circ, next to “prevents epilepsy.”  I had no idea people still talked about. 

You're getting into medical justifications, some of them to do with STDs.  The anti-circ response to that is that after weighing all the evidence with expert panels, not one national medical association on earth (not even Israel's) recommends routine circumcision.  And infants don't have sex, so there's no emergency to justify taking away his right to choose. 

Just a few years back cervical cancer was tossed around as a reason to cut baby boys.  Now you can read at the Israel Medical Association web site about the debunking of that one, but even if it was true there is an HPV vaccine now.  Some baby got cut based on risk/benefit info that was obsolete the following year, and he's still 15 years from his first sexual encounter.  Who knows what else will come along in the meantime to protect the world from the foreskin he wasn't allowed to keep? 

-Ron

Our original intent, when we decided not to circumcise the older boy, was that it would be his decision and we would document why we had decided not to.  My husband later changed his position regarding the circumcision of our sons, as he read more than one article indicating a reason for concern (both regarding the transmission of AIDS - yes, we would hope to educate them to protect themselves but realize human nature being what it is … and the risk to female partners of cervical cancer and our responsibility to be good societal citizens). 

As to a loss of sensation, his argument was, if sex was any better uncircumcised, he wasn't sure how a man could handle that much sensation.  I don't presume to have the smallest inkling what it feels like to be a man, I know only an external (and perhaps spiritual or an energy body) reaction during the act.  

The best argument I can make is in defense of the natural.  For myself, at the time my son was born, I was definitely of the opinion, and still am, “if God created us thus, there can be no flaw”.  It is reasonable to assume it serves a purpose to be the way we have been created and that we would not be created in a manner that required medical intervention to correct our natural state.  I also agree from my reading regarding the subject, that the original reasons the practice took hold in the US were purtanical or religiously driven and that the medical community benefited financially from the overwhelmingly accepted practice and sought to perpetuate it with medical reasons. 

Just so you know that personally I do agree with the “don't circumcise” camp.  I deferred to my husband as the male voice in the decision.  He had to live with the realization of the pain attached to that decision as he tended with devotion our son afterwards.  That pain was in his face and it hurt my heart overwhelmingly that we had taken that path.
 
It was cervical dysplasia, not HIP dysplasia, that I was referring to and the cause was suspected to be related to human papillomavirus (HPV) infection in a man and cervical cancer in his female partner.  “It is concluded that there is a positive relationship between absence of circumicision and genital HSV infection”.  Here is a link to one article in the British Journal of Venereal Diseases - http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1046564.  I found numerous others in an internet search.  There is what appears to be a balanced review of the issue in the Canadian Family Physician from 2003 at this link - http://www.cfpc.ca/cfp/2003/Sep/vol49-sep-critical-1.asp.  Quoted from that article “The findings in this study are consistent with those of other studies that show an association between male circumcision and reduced risk of HIV infection and other common sexually transmitted diseases.”  The final conclusions in this article are - [1] Male circumcision is associated with reduced risk of genital HPV infection in men whether or not their female partners have cervical HPV or cervical cancer. [2] Circumcision is associated with reduced risk of cervical cancer in women with high-risk sexual partners. [3] In men with low-risk sexual behaviour and monogamous female partners, circumcision makes no difference to the risk of cervical cancer. 

The article's author points out that it isn't possible to predict - “at birth that a baby boy was likely to engage in high-risk sexual behaviour”.  In the end, my husband's main argument was that he would rather protect them in case they don't protect themselves.

While my daughter's circumstances are simply an isolated case, I can not deny that the conditions exist in her life as described in the theories.  Whether coincidence or valid, I have no way of proving.

What is true, is that there are NOW diseases, as pointed out in the Canadian study that are of concern in modern society, that were at least unknown in older times, or possibly non-existent.  I have always thought that the rules and advice given by the “old” religions were based on intuitive reactions that doing “this whatever” had beneficial results, regardless of the official explanations given from the religious perspective.  I can easily see a reasoning for maintaining purity of culture and race by marking the male in this way but that argument has long ago become obsolete, except among a few adherents (and possible valid in the region of the Middle East for that reason), and genetics being what they are proving to be, these human beings are probably not as “pure” as they believe themselves to be.

So, to restate my own personal feelings - there is no reason, beyond personal preference and decisions based upon the best known “facts” available, to cut a part away from any boy's body.  The jury is still out as to whether such techniques do indeed result in protective results to the larger society.

Deborah

PS to TLCTugger -

I understand there is now a vaccine being offered to preteen and younger girls to prevent transmission of HPV in the hopes of reducing the risk of cervical cancer. 

Therefore, your point is valid and accurate. 

Though I don't think we are close to eradicating HIV yet, that may come …

Deborah

I have “experienced” both types in the past. And the key issue to me is cleanliness.

 No matter if it is cut or uncut, one must maintain their penis as though it were, and is precious.

I had my son circumcized in the past cuz it was what people did when they had sons. I was too young, or uninformed to think about it. Kind of like people who give their children immunizations cuz they are “supposed to”. Keith did not immunize his children and they all were fine. He did not buy into the idea of “should”….

Just my 2 cents worth, not too wise, or insightful, just a “point” well taken…LOL

:)

It is remarkable that there are any women left seeing the millions and millions throughout the centuries that had sex with a non snipped penis.

I agree with Enlightened.thinker. We are who we are. I happen to have scarred lungs yet in no way do I go back and start laying blame and shame, or think of myself as not being a whole, complete goddess. And so I became a triathlete, a cross country cyclist, and a marathoner….lololol…a wheezy one…..

Still, the enquiry begs to be looked at, thought about, and discussed…for our children's children.

I do not believe anything anymore just because I am told. I research, I think, I ask questions, I tap into my own being for the answer.

I am being told today that just about every freedom that is slowly being taken from me is for my own good, my safety, my ……….. I say bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JG, my hero, girlfren!

Sherri

This is an interesting discussion. As a woman, I have to say that I always preferred the “cut” version. I guess it's what I was used to. Both my sons were circumsized because my husband was and he figured it would be better if they all looked a like.  Since it is usually donein infancy, a baby has not really much say. I think men should do what they feel is right for them. It is their body.

Amen to you both - Sherri & JG. 

We do the best that we can do at any given moment and should never second guess whether it was right or wrong.  We should diligently inform ourselves about the important details.  Even studies that show an incidence of disease related - if you look at it thoughtfully, the incidence is small. 

It is like cigarette smoking.  It probably isn't the best thing for lungs meant to breathe air but not everyone who smokes will die of lung cancer (in fact, without knowing the statistics, I would guess the incidence is not the majority).  The same can be said for drinking alcohol - not all drinkers of alcoholic beverages will die of cirrohsis or liver cancer.

There is something more, another factor more important, in the causes of these challenges in our lives, that is beyond such decisions made in the course of living or the research and study of scientists.

One can never give any their personal freedom and responsibility to choose away to any one else and be whole.  Even though the circumstances they find themselves in may indicate that they should keep those things privately to themselves.  If their guidance tells them so, it should be honored.

Deborah

'ere, 'ere goddess Deborah.

just a thought….one aspect of the disease fear….I worked for a long time in an AIDS/HIV center as a volunteer massage therapist. It would have been an interesting study to ask all my clients/friends, before they died, if their partners had been circumcised. I have to think, with absolutely no back up, that a huge majority of USA guys, gay, straight or bi, are circumcised…not their choice, of course.

I do not have telly but I heard on the radio news the other night that there is trouble brewing with the HPV vaccine, and lo and behold, some of it might be greed based. Once again I heard it, no back up data.

Jeff, I am glad you know Joseph Kramer's work. Who better to teach anyone about the cock than Joseph.

I will meet him in Phoenix next month at the ASEP conference. He is receiving a lifetime achievement award.
Here's a link to the conference.
The Wisdom of Orgasm

Attendance is open to non members if anyone has a strong desire to participate.
I'd love to hear more of your experience with Joe's work, Jeff, or anyone else.

Oh, Sherri, there is a speaker on female genital cutting too.